Curse

riceangel · Aug 03, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Recently I've seen monks running dolyak instead. Is that a wise choice?
Pros of Dolyak:
no energy cost
unremovalable
+armor
same length as balanced if not speccing into tactics
shorter recharge
Cons:
cant be used while activating other skill
75% slow

Pros of Balanced Stance:
Monks are likely to spec into at least 7 giving it 14sec duration
immune to to critical
its a stance

Cons:
removable
longer recharge

any thoughts or input?

Gennadios · Aug 03, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I just can't see a -75% speed reduction being worth the +10 armor. When I first saw the post, I assumed /w 0 strength the sig would last maybe 3-4 seconds, just long enough to cast a critical spell with the minor annoyance of an extra 2sec of slowdown.

I checked the wiki and 8 seconds is way too long to take that kind of a speed loss, especially if you have a slightly over-extended party that may be in need of healing.

Arkantos · Aug 03, 2009, 01:11 AM // 01:11

For 8 seconds, you have +10 armor, cannot be knocked down, and you cannot kite for shit.

Balanced stance.

Lux Aeterna · Aug 03, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Dolyak signet is pretty annoying when against it in arenas, especially due to the short recharge which results in a short downtime between uses (shorter than balanced stance).

Bob Slydell · Aug 03, 2009, 02:04 AM // 02:04

I'd go with Balanced Stance. Arkantos made a good point, lol.

Gift3d · Aug 03, 2009, 02:06 AM // 02:06

if you're gonna spec into tactics for some other shitty stance, then balanced, if not, dolyak.

i thought that was the general idea behind the use of each with a little dash of common sense sprinkled around...

AKB48 · Aug 03, 2009, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Dolyak's only function would be the +10 armor w/ anti-KD. But it isn't worth moving 75% slower for 8 seconds, since melee characters can do just as much damage without KD as with KD. You will also be a sitting target for AoE/Projectile eles since you literally can't move.

Trylo · Aug 03, 2009, 02:35 AM // 02:35

using dolyak is literally:
"i know, lets do the enemy's job for them, and prevent any attempt at kiting. they can even save adrenaline!"

if they changed it to something such as a 2 or 3 sec duration with a 10 or 15 sec recharge, then you might have a useful skill as a monk primary. even then balanced stance would probably be better because they wouldnt be able to just sit there for 3 seconds before starting to KD. at least you could guardian yourself in that time?

edit: lol it has a 3/4 second aftercast too! really guys, is there a good argument for using it?

Sun Fired Blank · Aug 03, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Dolyak Signet is only relevant for Arenas.

You're overly fixated on the movement reduction. Using Dolyak Signet is easy enough. You maintain proper distance; if they push towards you, then you pre-kite, you punch Dolyak Signet before they reach you, then make sure that you have Vigorous Spirit. Once you reach that point, if you have the proper setup, you are mostly invulnerable.

SETUP:

- Furious Spear of Defense (+5 AL)
- Tactics Shield (+16 AL, potential +10 AL vs. dmg_typed)
- Blessed / Disciple's Insignias (+10-15 AL)
- Dolyak Signet (+10 AL)

TOTAL: 101-116 AL

This reduces most damage by ~50-60%. Some quick examples:

- Primal Rage does about 42 DPS on a stationary target (AL: 60). It only does about 20 DPS on a heavily armored stationary target (AL: 110), even if you consider that roughly 10% of that damage is bonus damage.

- Eviscerate does about 50 DPS on a stationary target (AL: 60). It only does about 25 DPS on a heavily armored stationary target (AL: 110), if you consider that roughly 15% of that damage is bonus damage.

- Mind Blast @ 14 does 23 damage on AL: 110. Rodgort's Invocation @ 14 does 47 damage. Ride the Lightning @ 16 does 77 damage.

Spearing under Vigorous Spirit @ 14 undoes about 13 DPS.

It also helps to properly emphasize downtime and the signet being unremovable. 14 / 30 is far more vulnerable than 8 / 20, even if you're alternating stances properly, and if they have stance removal, you're not remotely safe.

In Arenas, damage is no reason for people dying if you manage it properly, and in fact doesn't hurt much except for helping to setup any of these situations:

1. Knockdown @ 50% + DW
2. Defile Defenses @ 50% + DW
3. Damage Hexes @ 50%
4. Disabling Word of Healing
5. Energy = 0

Sierraa · Aug 03, 2009, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

edit: lol it has a 3/4 second aftercast too! really guys, is there a good argument for using it?

It can't be removed meaning you won't get trained out by a wild throw hammer warrior, it has + armor which balanced stance does not. It allows you to spec into something else instead of tactics. lul TA.

Krill · Aug 03, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

I can see the merits of it, it's something I was thinking of in the p-rage TA meta because it does such terrible damage on stationary targets as Sun Fired mentioned. Big prots have been out of the arena metagame forever, the new prot is boosting your armor as much as possible and limiting your exposure to physical damage and knockdowns with passive defense. Clumsy as it is, doylak signet accomplishes that and also adds a bit of energy management.

Reverend Dr · Aug 03, 2009, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I remember when r/w spirit spammers ran dolyak's to prevent interruption.

Daisuko · Aug 03, 2009, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I remember when r/w spirit spammers ran dolyak's to prevent interruption.

lol that sounds like a terribad idea. HAY LETS NOT SPREAD SPIRITS OUT AT ALL.

or maybe they were just casting a single 5 cast spirit, rather than 2 3 second.

Div · Aug 03, 2009, 07:51 AM // 07:51

I think one of the big pluses that people should focus on is the 0 energy cost of dolyak signet. The fact that you don't have to switch to a high set to activate it as compared to balanced stances makes it pretty nice too, since a second in high set to activate balanced stance is a second too much in terms of damage taken and energy loss.

With that said, I still prefer balanced because of the ability to actually kite damage, which is arguably much, much more useful than a mere +10 armor. Once you twitch that knock from the hammer guy and catch him in flail, it doesn't matter if he's able to wild throw your stance off. He's stuck completely useless against you for a good 10 seconds or however long his enraging recharges next. With dolyak, sure you won't be knocked, but tanking a hammer warrior autoattacking you isn't the best thing you want to do.

360° · Aug 03, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Sometimes when I want 6 sec Guardian I run Dolyak Signet and Shield Bash so I don't have to spec into tactics at all an still be quite durable. I don't know if it's worth the armor loss what a specced shield gives you but I'm just a Guardian fanboy.

Trylo · Aug 03, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

@Sun Fired Black:

you can do all that stuff without dolyak signet. just like you said with dolyak, you can run and then use balanced right before they KD, and even then you can try to keep running because they dont get the bonus from critting on your back. the only difference is that +10 armor from dolyak... which brings me to:

(not directly at you) people are missing half the reason of q7 tactics; the +15AL shield. i would rather have +7 AL all the time than +10 half the time. i would also like to be able to move all the time.

@Alex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Burn Victim

It can't be removed meaning you won't get trained out by a wild throw hammer warrior, it has + armor which balanced stance does not. It allows you to spec into something else instead of tactics. lul TA.

i was thinking more of RA when i made the post, i do not know about the TA metagame but if theres an abundance of wild throws then by all means laugh at balanced stance. why wouldnt you use return, or powder if theyre removing stances though? dolyak is just so limiting. then again if theres a necro spamming weaken knees at every match i would certainly reconsider dolyak. not enough experience in TA because its pretty generally agreed that its dead (not that i dont like it, just that i cant really find anyone to play with).

IMMORTAlMITCH · Aug 03, 2009, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I'm not really sure why kiting damage is a point of discussion when 90% of the warriors play Primal Rage anyway..

Dolyak Signet is still a bad idea though, at least in a GvG setting.

urania · Aug 03, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

I found doliaks sig to be rather mediocre against hammer warriors in a balanced setup, but then again my whole build was quite a mess at that time, so meh.
It's cool if you cant spec high enough into tactics to hit the shield req, be it 7 or 8. Shield bash goes well with it too, both being strength based. It owns teams who spec around stance removal, at least, like paragon ways with hammer warriors.

Snoes · Aug 03, 2009, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Dolyak is decent when used with bonneti's :/

Sun Fired Blank · Aug 03, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

For Arenas, I prefer an option that does not require any energy for use, avoiding dangerous weapon switches and conserving about 10E per minute. I also prefer having a reliable 12s downtime versus an often unreliable 16s downtime.

Hammer does about 42 DPS on a stationary target (AL: 60). Crushing Blow is the only bonus damage, so it only does about 18 DPS on a heavily armored stationary target (AL: 110). The ability to kite damage is a non-factor if every point is cleaned up just by spearing under Vigorous Spirit and maybe using a Patient Spirit. It's largely futile to hit a monk under Dolyak Signet if the bulk of your damage is armor influenced; spearing for adrenaline gets identical results, which is what a guy locked in flail should inevitably do.

The problem of Return is you inevitably get caught. If you're the monk, once you're caught, you're dead. Dark Escape has trash downtime, Smoke Powder Defense is absolute shit, Heart of Shadow can be strong on certain maps (but only if your enemy lets you abuse it) and is of no use on others.